[Don Salmon]

Hi Whit:

As a clinical psychologist who has worked with quite a number of delusional individuals, I can say there are a number of approaches.

But first, I want to check – are you asking what can done on an individual level (like, talking to your brother) – or on a societal level, or both?

[Don Salmon]

sorry about that last post – I copied it from an email where I used various colors. But actually, leaving the code in might be a nice part of the practice, letting go of the mind’s commentary or reactions and just allowing that also to point to that Silence underlying all thought and emotion and sensation!

[Don Salmon]

I think you said it quite beautifully toward the end.

letting go of this ‘knowing” explicit self and allowing the simplicity, effortlessness of unknowing.

I just heard a friend give a marvelous example of this, something we all know.

When we were little children, and went outside in the late evening to look at the night sky, we were’t seeking self improvement, we weren’t trying to have some “experience,” we were just naturally, spontaneously, effortlessly THERE – absorbed in the wonder and beauty of that expanse.

And we all have spontaneous movements of this – an example i often give is the one you cited, caring for a child in a way that calls for that deeper effortless intuitive knowing. Many have it playing music or playing basketball or walking in nature.

The key, to me is to not depend on the person you’re giving your loving attention to, the sport, the natural setting, etc but to learn to shift in any moment into that effortless, spontaneously aware state.

[Don Salmon]

Hi David – I don’t have time at present to attend another zoom meeting – but I hope you will post a few gleams of insight/humor/etc here after the meeting. Looking forward to it and hope it works out well!

[Don Salmon]

Sorry, for effective therapy for depression probably by far the most successful would be an integrated implementation of appropriate supportive social structures – thus fulfilling the declared “Biopsychosocial” model of treatment:

Bio: meds, healthy sleep, eating and exercise, living in tune with one’s circadian rhythms, daily immersion in natural settings, etc

Psycho: CBT, interpersonal therapy, mindfulness, heart-fulness, somatic therapies

Social: a deep connected, caring community in which education and healthcare are provided and meaningful work is available to all.

I would add Bio-psycho-social-spiritual. Then you have the whole thing. I expect to see this well implemented at least by some time in early 2551.

[Don Salmon]

Hi Ralph:

I think I see your point. I guess I had a different take.

Assume someone is caught up in delusional thinking. Assume one has made a correct assessment. The interesting question here, to me, is, What can you do?

I guess I’ll go ahead and give some answers.

Individually, there’s almost universal scientific and well researched agreement that you can’t argue someone out of a delusional state. So for example, in my group therapy session at Bellevue Hospital, I remember a woman came to the group in a florid psychotic state. She came up to me and said, “I know you. You’re my lawyer.”

Well, all the arguing I could do wouldn’t persuade her otherwise. So I said, “Oh, I used to be a lawyer but now I’m studying to be a psychologist.” She was perfectly happy with that and was an active participant in the group (previously having been wary of revealing personal secrets to her lawyer!!)

Similarly when talking with Christian fundamentalists when I lived in South Carolina. I didn’t say, “Well, Jesus was just one of many incarnations of the Divine, like Krishna, Buddha and so on.” I would talk about experiencing Christ in my life, and asking them what their relationship to Christ was. It enabled us to talk about a wide variety of topics that a purely rational (LH) conversation wouldn’t have allowed.

So with climate change. People choose delusional beliefs because it serves them emotionally in some way. Just trying to give them the facts doesn’t help. Obviously WHit’s brother has the intellectual capacity to understand. If he thinks that climate change is a left wing attack on American values, for example, I can share my concerns about a changing America and my fears that my cultural background makes it hard for me to adjust to all the dizzying changes in the world today.

This is pretty much how cult deprogrammers work. In fact, they have written books about how to deprogram society of delusional beliefs.

Does it work?

Not likely. Religions have promoted delusional beliefs for thousands fo years. Science has promoted the delusional belief in a dead, non conscious world – this belief in materialism is actually the primary driving force behind Iain’s 2nd book – TMWT.

Will reading his book make a difference? By itself, I doubt it.

But there are – I believe – subtler realities. If you believe Indian philosophers, we are all connected in a subtle field of consciousness, and we are at the end of an age of LH denomination, and all the conspiracy theories, all the breakdowns we see around us in rules, boundaries, structures etc are a sign of the shift in consciousness that’s occurring collectively. Ultimately, as we shift our own consciousness, that will have effects worldwide. If we can take steps externally to make changes great, but it’s most likely to have more wide ranging effects when we ourselves make that internal change – which gets back to what you’re saying, Ralph, that it’s ultimately the inner change that matters!

[Don Salmon]

Interesting. My understanding of systems theory and other recent developments showing interconnectedness is that they remain within the materialist view (I think Iain mentions this in the closing chapters of TMWT). My sense is the same limitation occurs within AI. Interestingly, the leading Idealist (non materialist) thinker in the world, Bernardo Kastrup, has doctorates in both computer science and philosophy of mind, and has worked with some of the world’s leading AI specialists. Bernardo is as convinced as ever that (a) AI will never “understand” consciousness’ and (b) the question of whether AI is “conscious” is a moot point, since nothing exists but consciousness!

In any case, one cannot “think” (either implicitly or explicitly) about such things and come to a conclusion. At least, I should say a bit more humbly, that’s my understanding of how the contemplatives of the world view it.

I’ll definitely start that new group. Maybe “Practicing the Kingdom of Heaven, Yoga, Buddhism, Tantra, Kabbalah, Sufism, and more – inspired by TMWT”

[Don Salmon]

Hi Paul:

Thanks for the clarification, that’s actually what I thought you meant. In that context, yes, knowing – a much deeper knowing of the mind – is associated with understanding, non-verbal, direct experiential insight.

I was talking about a knowing beyond the mind, and not sure how to get into that. Anyway, thanks again for the (implicit) inspiration. I’m going to try to start that new group and see if anyone here might be interested in contemplative/meditative/yogic practice. I don’t care what religion or any religion – atheists welcome too!

[Don Salmon]

not sure if my reply was clear – I was just apologizing for leaving the codes in (I copied this practice from an email where I used various colors). The code could be a nice part of the practice, taking it simply as more mind stuff that appears in Silence.

By the way, if you want a Christian version of this, the Desert Fathers of the 3rd century used a wheel as symbolic of awareness. They placed Christ in the Center of the wheel, and that was supposed to turn the monk’s attention to the presence of Christ at the heart of our Being, an infinite, boundless Silence from which proceeds the Word which “creates” both our individual self and the entire universe.

[Don Salmon]

regarding your last comment, I’m not sure I understand how you’re using the words knowing, unknowing, explicit and implicit.

but you inspired me to try something. I was asked back in September to write comments in various groups to encourage activity here (it was quite quiet for the first few months). I’m glad to see it’s more active – somewhat – but my main interest in Iain’s work relates to contemplative practice.

I’ve been trying to get a conversation started around practice but so far haven’t had any luck.

I think in response to your question I’m thinking of trying again – starting a new group. The title at the moment is something like

TMAHE and TMWT and the Kingdom of God (or Brahman or Allah or the Tao or the Dharmadatu or the Power of Now or whatever language you’d like to use!)

The idea is, toward the end of TMWT Iain gives a lot of attention to God, but has been hesitant (surprisingly to me, in a very left hemisphere way) about suggesting any practices (assuming, from a LH hemisphere perspective and a very Protestant perspective, that “practice” is purely LH and therefore inappropriate for contemplative life).

I thought I would just start by posting various practices from different contemplative traditions, without much (if any) analysis or explanation, and see if anyone is interested.

If you have any ideas about what might be interesting for this group, please let me know. I’d much rather write about knowing and unknowing in a practice context rather than intellectually – if that makes any sense.

Here’s a start:

Practice: Turning Awareness Upon Itself

<font color=”#674ea7″>Find a quiet space and notice the thoughts floating through your consciousness. </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Notice that there are thoughts and the one who sees the thoughts. </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>There are emotions and the one who feels the emotions. </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>There is a body and the one who sees and feels the body and its sensations. </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Who is it that notices the thoughts, emotions, sensations, and body? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Who or what is here that is beyond the movement of thought, emotions, and sensations? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Who is it that is here and inhabits this body? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Rest and experience what you are beyond the movements of mind. </font>

<font color=”#e69138″>While sitting quietly, contemplate these questions: </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Who am I when no thought is present? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″> Who is it that observes thoughts? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>What does this presence that I am, feel like? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″> Can I feel and experience the spaciousness and silence of my own nature? </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>What is here that is already perfectly quiet and universally good? </font>

<font color=”#e69138″> Allow awareness to notice the thoughts, emotions, and sensations floating through your consciousness.</font>

<font color=”#cc0000″> Now, stop looking outward and allow awareness to turn inward and look directly at your own self. </font>

<font color=”#cc0000″>Rest here, in this space of silence and luminosity. </font>

<font color=”#cc0000″> If you find yourself lost in thought again, simply turn awareness upon itself again.</font>

<font color=”#674ea7″> Become aware of awareness and rest here. </font>

<font color=”#674ea7″>Smile and let go into the beauty and silence of your true nature.</font>

<font color=”#674ea7″> When you have completed your formal meditation practice of turning awareness upon itself and you are walking forward throughout your day, keep these questions in mind: </font>

<font color=”#d5a6bd”>Can I notice the quiet presence of awareness, right here, right now? </font>

<font color=”#d5a6bd”>Can I notice that there is a quiet presence continually witnessing every moment of my everyday life? </font>

<font color=”#d5a6bd”>Can I notice that this awareness requires no effort, no doing?</font>

<font color=”#d5a6bd”>Do I realize that I am awake awareness already, right here and right now?
</font>
Holliday, Craig. Yoga of Liberation: A heart-based path to spiritual awakening (p. 47). Kindle Edition.

[Don Salmon]

two more thoughts:

one about pain. It’s SO interesting – it’s so hard to explain to people that ALL pain is psychological. They say “But my pain is REAL.” And I say, “Let’s say I have a knife in my hand, and the nerves to your hand are severed at the wrist. If I plunge this knife into your hand, will you feel anything?”

Then they get it. “Oh, the pain depends on the brain.” (well, I don’t try and challenge their materialistic view of the brain but at least they get a slightly subtler understanding.”

The general view of pain (back to Paul’s point) is that it’s a complex layer of interpretation, involving instinctive, emotional and cognitive responses.

I love your other point, Paul, about dreaming. Stephen LaBerge, one of the world’s leading students of lucid dreaming, points out that we’re always dreaming – the brain constructing imagery based on stimuli whose nature we do not know (vibrations of some kind – physicists call it “physical’ Indian philosophers call it Shakti: the conscious energy or Force of the Supreme Reality of God or Brahman)

Tibetan Buddhists have a wonderful practice to give you a visceral sense of this.

Imagine you’re dreaming right now. What does that mean?

Not that everything is vague and hazy, but that all the forms you perceive exist only in consciousness. If you’ve done preliminary Buddhist study and understand that “you” don’t exist as a defined, unchangeable entity, you can feel this as forms existing in a boundless consciousness.

how to get a quick feel for this? Notice your experience right now – sensations, emotions, thoughts, images arising and passing away in an open, boundless space of awareness.

If you put these 2 together – letting go of the sense of bounded self, and seeing all the changing forms as appearing in consciousness – it can lead to a profound, radical change of experience, beyond BOTH LH and RH.

[Don Salmon]

Hey Paul,

are you a musician, psychologist, both, neither?

[Don Salmon]

Paul, you mention two things that I find fascinating, and both are quite closely connected.

WHAT IS MEASURABLE?

One of the research studies I did as a psychologist involved looking at the effects of mindfulness on reducing physical pain. It’s rather amazing that none of our advanced technologies have the capacity to measure the pain people experience.

I did my research almost 25 years ago, but even now, the only way to measure pain is to ask: “What is your pain level on a scale of 1 to 10?”

And people are notoriously bad at providing consistent estimates. How many times did I hear, “Oh, my pain is at least an 11 or 12!” And I’d say, “Well, how about on a scale of 1 to 100,” and they’d immediately say, “oh well then, maybe around 70.”

The level of apparent control and prediction we have in regard to the material world (or rather, the objective aspect of our experience which we mistakenly label “Material” in the sense that it is completely self existent) is far less than we imagine – as is obvious from the excesses of climate change, and the nearly impossible task of replicating most psychological research studies.

Then that gets us to so-called anomalous research. This is one of the terms people use for parapsychological research. If you are slightly open-minded about this, you realize that people are having thousands of psychic experiences throughout the day, every day.

And somehow, the idea that these experiences are very hard to measure and reproduce in a lab setting – and the incorrect idea that these experiences are somehow contrary to the so-called “laws of physics” – makes them unacceptable to many in the religion of scientism who believe they’re being scientific!

[Don Salmon]

I wonder (speaking from the RH I suppose) are there truly any laws of nature that can’t be “broken”?

After all, what we call a “law” is simply a set of observations of patterns of nature.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever established even a procedure for testing the invariability of these patterns. We see them consistently in our – what, millions, maybe billions of tests over a few centuries.

What if there is some tiny region of space where the patterns are different?

What if there are other universes where the patters are different?

What if the patterns were different 1000 years ago (then of course, we couldn’t count it as 1000 years)

What if the patterns are constantly changing, but changing so universally and in such a slow manner that the means by which we measure patterns makes it seem as if they are staying the same?

[Don Salmon]

Hi Charles, as someone who has administered over 1000 IQ tests and at least as many personality tests, I would caution you to take all them with many grains of salt.

I started out in psychology with grave reservations about psych testing. What I discovered quite surprised me – if you take ALL the results as mere indications, minuscule pointers to things you might miss in the course of an interview – they can be immensely helpful, right down to pinpointing precise areas of the brain that have been affected by stroke, traumatic brain injury, tumors, etc. If used well, they can be far more precise in providing insights into mental illness and diagnoses than the most extensive questioning by psychiatrists or counselors who don’t conduct tests (which is usually why we psychologists are consulted by them to begin with – certainly not for our superior therapeutic skills!!!)

Just thought that might be of interest.